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Guys, there will be plenty of time to debate who and what is responsible. Right now our priority must be in keeping these migrants the fuck away from Europe. This can only be achieved through unified activism to change the Europeam psyche. We must not divide ourselves.
I expect a good backlash in the next decade similar to America's Conservative renewal after the Hippie movement.
I only hope that normal people can come to their senses about the failures of multiculturalism before it is too late. Once you catch the viral infection, I am afraid there may be no cure.
So you think he didn't do anything bad? Of course not... everybody knows what the war criminals like Milosevic, Seselj, Mladic and Karadzic did.
If Srebrenica was not a genocide than what was it?
During the war the most young people (students) in Belgrade were demonstrating against Milosevic. They knew that the war was wrong. Only stupid people were for Milosevic. What did he good for Serbia? Nothing...
Please correct me if I am wrong, but not a single of those mentioned names have actually been found guilty despite decades of extremely well funded and politically appointed lawyers. Well I guess they have been found guilty by CNN and MSNBC but I digress.
Srebenica was a bad event, but it was only an atrocity, not a sustained campaign to destroy an entire group which is the definition of genocide. It also was commited by various war criminals and militias and has never been linked to the Serbian state unless anything has changed in the past few years.
The war had popular support in Serbia at the time and I still think it was a necessary evil. My Family were Serb refugees from Bosnia when they ethnically cleansed us by forcing us to leave and burning our house so they could steal a country and make it free of Serbs.
It is necessary to fight for your home whatever the consequences may be.
Last edited by Czar_Alek (2015-09-15 01:05:28)
Funny how you turn it around, like Serbia were the one who defend themself. My whole family had to flee to Germany, Croatia, Sweden, only some of my cousins fought there to defend their home. Who started this whole bullshit and wanted a big Serbia? Serbia attacked other Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia. Everybody knows what happened in this war and everybody knows they are all war criminals. If they didn't order the Cetniks to do the atrocities, or who else did?
Sorry for OT but this had to be set right and this is all i have to say. I know what happened there as most people in Germany know it. It is a shame that this happened in the middle of Europe. I only remember one Jew criticizing Europe for no doing anything and just watching...
Last edited by dary (2015-09-15 09:49:16)
Funny how you turn it around, like Serbia were the one who defend themself. My whole family had to flee to Germany, Croatia, Sweden, only some of my cousins fought there to defend their home. Who started this whole bullshit and wanted a big Serbia? Serbia attacked other Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia. Everybody knows what happened in this war and everybody knows they are all war criminals. If they didn't order the Cetniks to do the atrocities, or who else did?
Sorry for OT but this had to be set right and this is all i have to say. I know what happened there as most people in Germany know it. It is a shame that this happened in the middle of Europe. I only remember one Jew criticizing Europe for no doing anything and just watching...
"Everyone knows what happened" because CNN, BBC, and the rest fed propaganda for years about Serbia being the only perpetrators. Despite a budget of over $200,000,000 per year, the politically motivated Hague tribunal is still unable to pin anything on the Serbs besides small isolated incidents.
I only remember one Jew criticizing Europe for no doing anything and just watching...
So you personally spoke to all 15,000,000 Jews? Why else would you make such a stupid comment that only reflects on your baseless bigotry? But even so, make sure you understand your history before making such ignorant comments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o … Background
Background
In 1940, there were approximately 14,000 Jews in Bosnia and Herzegovina,[4] with 10,000 in Sarajevo.
With the invasion of Yugoslavia in April 1941 by the Nazis and their Allies, Bosnia and Herzegovina came under the control of the Independent State of Croatia, a Nazi puppet-state. The Independent State of Croatia was headed by the notoriously anti-Semitic Ustaše, and they wasted little time in persecuting non-Croats such as Serbs, Jews and Gypsies.
Deportation and murder
Concentration camps in Yugoslavia in World War II.
On 22 July 1941, Mile Budak – a senior Minister in the Croatian government and one of the chief ideologists of the Ustaše movement[9] – declared that the goal of the Ustaše was the extermination of "foreign elements" from the Independent State of Croatia. His message was simple: "The basis for the Ustasha movement is religion. For minorities such as Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies, we have three million bullets."[10] In 1941, Ante Pavelić – leader of the Ustaše movement – declared that "the Jews will be liquidated in a very short time".[10]
In September 1941 deportations of Jews began, with most Bosnian Jews being deported to Auschwitz or to concentration camps in Croatia. The Ustaše set up concentration camps at Kerestinac, Jadovna, Metajna and Slana. The most notorious, where cruelty of unimaginable proportions was perpetrated against Jewish and Serbian prisoners were at Pag and Jasenovac. At Jasenovac alone, hundreds of thousands of people were murdered (mostly Serbs), including 20,000 Jews.[11]
By War's end, the Ustaše had murdered more than 500,000 Serbs, approximately 40,000 Roma (Gypsies) and 32,000 Jews.[12] Among Bosnian Jews, 10,000 of the pre-War Jewish population of 14,000 had been murdered.[1] Most of the 4,000 who had survived did so by fighting with the Yugoslav, Jewish or Soviet Partisans[13] or by escaping to the Italian controlled zone[10] (approximately 1,600 had escaped to the Italian controlled zone on the Dalmatian coast[14]).
So you see, the historically weak and cowardly Bosnia and Herzegovina (to go along with the weak and cowardly Europeans - who mostly like to talk a lot but surrender at the first sign of blood) surrendered themselves to the domination of Nazi Germany (via the equally cowardly Nazi puppet regime of Croatia) and were more than happy to carry out persecutions of Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and others.
Last edited by Aqualung (2015-09-15 17:35:45)
It is necessary to fight for your home whatever the consequences may be.
Yes - this will ALWAYS be the case for countries and peoples whose survival depend on it and the should make no apologies for it.
Same goes for countries who are not permanently plagued with stain of European cowardice in the face of danger - think WWII and how easily so many European countries surrendered to the Nazi's without so much as a complaint, let alone putting up a fight. Tell me, do they not raise brave and courageous men in European countries? Only sissies that like to talk bravado but then run away whenever danger strikes?
The only countries with REAL MEN and REAL SOLDIERS who showed REAL BRAVERY and stood up to evil of the Nazis (and Japanese and Italians) are the same ones that still do today - The United States of America (may God continue to bless her), The UK, and more selfishly, the USSR.
Yes, yes - please do go on demonstrating your baseless hatred and bigotry - it may help serve your reputation on these forums with the other haters but it serves more to demonstrate your sheer and childish ignorance of historical facts, not to mention current events.
Far be it from me to wish harm unto another human being but when you speak the way you do, you remove yourself from amongst the human race. Perhaps when the Islamic invasion hits your hometown (and believe me it's coming) they start with people like you.
Nah hes the boss-man, he takes over there servers and make them his bitches.
Indeed. One of the main reasons why we take our 1st Amendment rights so seriously and are fully willing to fight to the death to defend those rights with our 2nd Amendment rights.
Nah hes the boss-man, he takes over there servers and make them his bitches.
It is shameful that many watching/commenting on this thread have sat on the sidelines while totally baseless hatred and bigotry have been on full display. Some have spoken out which is a solid reflection on their character. So what if the bigot is an admin? I don't give a !@#$ if you are the goddamn king of the world - I will never stand idly by while shamefully vile and unsubstantiated bigotry is aired - I would like to see others grow and/or locate their testicles (or inner woman-power, if it so be) and show some goddamn courage and integrity too.
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don’t have integrity, nothing else matters."
~ Alan Simpson
"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance."
~ George Bernard Shaw
Last edited by Aqualung (2015-09-16 01:54:00)
The Americans and British were completely useless in the European Theatre, they basically only had support roles such as lend-lease and also softening Germany with bombs.
Normandy? Battle of the Bulge? Market Garden (yes, failed - but nonetheless)? Brest? Dragoon? Nancy? Hurtgen Forest? Aachen? Nordwind? Colmar Pocket?
Not to mention Sicily? Salerno? Monte Cassino? Anzio? Yes, the Italian campaign (and Middle-Eastern campaign) were vital to victory over the Nazi war machine).
they basically only had support roles such as lend-lease and also softening Germany with bombs.
When did strategic bombing become a "support role"? Someone forgot to tell the rest of us...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic … rld_War_II
Let's not forget the US's 17,000 paratroopers on D-Day.
Was the US late to enter the conflict? Yes. But once they entered it was the game-changer and everyone knew/knows it.
From Wikipedia:
Although the majority of German military deaths occurred on the Eastern Front, German losses on the Western Front were almost irreplaceable, because most of Germany's resources were being allocated to the Eastern Front. This meant that, while losses there could be replaced to some extent, very few replacements or reinforcements were being sent to the west to stop the advance of the Western Allies. The Normandy landings were a psychological blow to the German military and its leaders, who had feared a repetition of the two-front war of World War I.
All the real fighting was done by the Soviets and 8 out of 10 German casualties were achieved by the Soviets.
I already acknowledged the Soviet role (as you noted), albeit for less than honorable reasons. Let's not forget that the Soviets were also responsible for much of the havoc and destruction of WWII in it's early phases. As I am sure you are aware, Stalin only fought against Germany because Hitler betrayed him (remember the non-Aggression pact), initially Stalin was more than eager to join the Axis Pact.
Consider this... what if Hitler had not been so greedy and Operation Barbarossa never happened?
From Wikipedia:
"Germany invaded Poland on 1 September 1939, and Joseph Stalin ordered his own invasion of Poland on 17 September. Part of southeastern (Karelia) and Salla region in Finland were annexed by the Soviet Union after the Winter War. This was followed by Soviet annexations of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and parts of Romania (Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and the Hertza region). It was only in 1989 that the Soviet Union admitted the existence of the secret protocol of the Nazi-Soviet pact regarding the planned divisions of these territories."
Soviets captures Berlin and were the ones to defeat Hitler's army. The only reason why USA had any success on the ground was because the vast majority of Germany's strength was on the Eastern Front.
As I understand it, there was an agreement at Yalta which allowed the Soviets to take East Germany and Berlin. Stalin, in typical form, set out two competing Soviet generals who both wanted to be the first to reach and take Berlin, no matter the cost. Roosevelt severely underestimated and failed to understand Stalin's territorial ambitions and thus did not oppose or compete in this race, even though by several accounts Eisenhower's forces could have done so but chose to let the Soviets do the honors of !@#$ing up half that country and much of the region.
From Wikipedia:
The western Allies' decision to leave eastern Germany and the city of Berlin to the Red Army - honoring the agreement they made with the Soviet Union at Yalta - eventually had serious repercussions as the Cold War emerged and expanded in the post-war era.
Yes, yes - please do go on demonstrating your baseless hatred and bigotry - it may help serve your reputation on these forums with the other haters but it serves more to demonstrate your sheer and childish ignorance of historical facts, not to mention current events.
Far be it from me to wish harm unto another human being but when you speak the way you do, you remove yourself from amongst the human race. Perhaps when the Islamic invasion hits your hometown (and believe me it's coming) they start with people like you.
Who crucified Jesus Christ?
Who did Jesus Christ call liars and murderers?
Who were the money-lenders that Jesus Christ overturn their tables?
Who have cursed and blasphemed Jesus Christ in their "religious" writings?
Who have wrote that we are nothing but animals, beasts?
Who have practised usury?
Who have never did any honest, physical labour, like farming, even when ordered to?
Who were kicked out from a hundred nations, at different times and different places?
Who were the slave traders?
From who did great men, like Goethe, Voltaire, Schopenhauer, Dostoyevsky and many others, warned us?
Who were behind Freemasonry secret societies to overthrow monarchies?
Who created Communism?
Who got to Russian power and brutally murdered the Romanov family?
Who killed millions of Russians and Ukrainians, through starvation, torture and mass murders?
Who declared war on Germany and a boycott on all German products?
Who ordered to rape and kill all German women after World War II was over?
Who attacked the USS Liberty ship?
Who controls mainstream media?
Who controls the banking system, namely the Federal Reserve and European Central Bank?
Who controls the judicial system?
Who controls the educational system?
Who runs Holywood and the music industry?
Who is pushing all pornography and consequent immorality?
Who is promoting gay marriage?
Who is advocating for race-mixing?
Who is promoting racial wars?
Who is pushing for gun control laws?
To who do US taxpayers send billions of dollars per year?
Who have killed and maimed thousands of Palestinian children?
It is the jews, the eternal blameless victims.
Aqualung, I am not even going to argue with you. It is about as useful as arguing with someone about the sum of 2+2.
Just look at this quick data about the number of divisions of the German army by front. If this doesn't convince you that the war was decided on the East Front, I honestly don't know what to tell you. Just a summary, the Germans had twice as many divisions on the Eastern front as on all oher fronts for most of the war.
http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations … rld-war-ii
All those battles you mentioned were completely irrelevant. Even without the American involvement in Italy and France, the war wouldn't have taken much longer. The war was already decided long before D-Day, and all that was left was for the game to play out. Do you actually think that the U.S. could hold a chance against Germany if Germany didn't have 170 divisions tied up on the Eastern Front? The U.S. would have been completely spanked.
I suspect that you are unable to accept any other narrative besides the one you hold because it feeds your national pride.
I find Czar_Alek's comments interesting cause he looks reasonable but pretty stubborn. We have got a lot of people like him but I disagree with them and with Czar_Alek personally due to his point of view about underestimating U. S. contribution to victory over Nazism. I can't agree because I love history. The United States were involved in war earlier after Pearl Harbour day and there were a lot of bloody battles at the Pacific Ocean front. I am pretty sure there is no need to mention it all and no doubt you know it from such films, for example, like Pearl Harbour, Flags of Our Fathers, Letters from Iwo Jima etc. We may discuss a lot about the reasons of that preventive Japanese strike which was the reason of the American entry into war but the reasons of D-Day, which is known as "second front" here, are more interesting in my humble opinion. Why the U. S. did it so late? The first reason is Isolationism as a geopolitic style which was preferable for U. S. since old times of the Great Depression because European problem doesn't regard them. So, why did they do it though? In my opinion, they decided to entry into war in any way because the end was predetermined and the future trends of establishing control in post war Europe were very promising. The United States with the hugest army of WWII made their contribution to victory with very far-reaching favourable consequences for them and with comparatively small losses. It was politically wise.
By the way, judging by your English I think you spent some time abroad and it does mean you have to be more open for the other points of view.
^^ I think you are completely missing my hypothesis. I am saying that America wasn't the savior of Europe. I make no other claims.
The only reason why USA had low casualties is because they conviniently joined the real flight once it was completely clear that Germany was already defeated by USSR. USA waited for USSR to actually win the war and then they marched in and acted like they had some big part in the victory.
The only reason why I am stubborn is because anyone who disagrees with my hypothesis is either dishonest, misinformed, ultranationalist, drunk, off their meds, or trolling.
Last edited by Czar_Alek (2015-09-16 15:44:23)
@tuia
Who have wrote that we are nothing but animals, beasts? == Any evolutionist aka. people with the right mindset!
Who have practised usury? == Bankers
Who were the slave traders? == Muslims enslaved africans, africans enslaved muslims, europeans enslaved africans, europeans enslaved native-americans, native americans enslaved eachother, japan and mongolia enslaved almost whole asia
Who created Communism? == Karl Marx wasn't a jew only his maternal grandfather was a rabbi
Who got to Russian power and brutally murdered the Romanov family? == Yakov Yurovsky's family had ties to Judaism but nothing was sure about that
Who killed millions of Russians and Ukrainians, through starvation, torture and mass murders? == Communists..
Who ordered to rape and kill all German women after World War II was over? == All allies ..
Who is pushing all pornography and consequent immorality? == Lol who the fuck cares about pornography being pushed? This isn't the time anymore like back in the day when everyone was religious and thought it was a sin to bang multiple people
Who is promoting gay marriage? == Tuia are you homophobic?
Who is advocating for race-mixing? == This isn't the 50's anymore, is your mentality still to call black people negroes and white people the 'purest' and 'strongest' race which should not have kids with anyone but between themselfs?
I might have a mixed kids one day with my girl and this would probably be called sinning by you so to me this just made me lose all my respect tuia.
This makes you anti-semetic, homophobic and racist. Which makes you a nazi
anyone who disagrees with my hypothesis is either dishonest, misinformed, ultranationalist, drunk, off their meds, or trolling.
Really? Who am I? Probably, a dishonest ultra-drunk misinformed troll?
Czar_Alek wrote:anyone who disagrees with my hypothesis is either dishonest, misinformed, ultranationalist, drunk, off their meds, or trolling.
Really? Who am I? Probably, a dishonest ultra-drunk misinformed troll?
Do you actually think that America was the savior of Europe from Nazi Germany?
nämeless wrote:Czar_Alek wrote:anyone who disagrees with my hypothesis is either dishonest, misinformed, ultranationalist, drunk, off their meds, or trolling.
Really? Who am I? Probably, a dishonest ultra-drunk misinformed troll?
Do you actually think that America was the savior of Europe from Nazi Germany?
Not only one, one of the "saviours".
Ok that is reasonable enough. As long as you don't subscribe to the American messiah complex I can't complain.
Ok that is reasonable enough. As long as you don't subscribe to the American messiah complex I can't complain.
I would not subscribe to that because I know history and I also don't like when someone is trying to use propaganda to dictate his ideas. Every issue should be observed from all sides to draw a conclusion. I must admit your view is too one-sided and I don't really understand why. You have ignored my question about your English. I found it strange because ex-Yugo people are usually not fluent in English.
By the way, judging by your English I think you spent some time abroad and it does mean you have to be more open for the other points of view.
I have lived in English speaking countries for most of my life. I didn't mean to ignore because I was under the impression that you were making an observation rather than question.
I have lived in English speaking countries for most of my life.
That's it. Just another observation I made. Although I have never been abroad, I think I can notice this kind of things: people who left their homeland are usually criticise the country they were born in but your case is vice versa.
@tuia
This makes you anti-semetic, homophobic and racist. Which makes you a nazi
he should be proud then
"Everyone knows what happened" because CNN, BBC, and the rest fed propaganda for years about Serbia being the only perpetrators. Despite a budget of over $200,000,000 per year, the politically motivated Hague tribunal is still unable to pin anything on the Serbs besides small isolated incidents.
I have family there and they saw what is going on. Serbian media is much bigger propaganda... in Germany they don't only broadcast what CNN, BCC are showing. We have serious broadcasts who tell the truth more or less.
But let's stop this OT.
Last edited by dary (2015-09-16 20:01:34)
moon' wrote:@tuia
This makes you anti-semetic, homophobic and racist. Which makes you a nazihe should be proud then
And there goes your credibility.
Aqualung, I am not even going to argue with you. It is about as useful as arguing with someone about the sum of 2+2.
Just look at this quick data about the number of divisions of the German army by front. If this doesn't convince you that the war was decided on the East Front, I honestly don't know what to tell you. Just a summary, the Germans had twice as many divisions on the Eastern front as on all oher fronts for most of the war.
http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations … rld-war-ii
All those battles you mentioned were completely irrelevant. Even without the American involvement in Italy and France, the war wouldn't have taken much longer. The war was already decided long before D-Day, and all that was left was for the game to play out. Do you actually think that the U.S. could hold a chance against Germany if Germany didn't have 170 divisions tied up on the Eastern Front? The U.S. would have been completely spanked.
I suspect that you are unable to accept any other narrative besides the one you hold because it feeds your national pride.
Alek - I appreciate the vast majority of your positions/arguments on this thread and have used some of them to challenge my own hypotheses so thank you. As an aside, your arguments would be more effective without unnecessarily labeling those that don't agree with you drunk, stupid, etc.
I believe I can be convinced that the Soviets would have emerged victorious on the Eastern front with or without US involvement at the West. The questions that follow are:
How much longer would it have taken?
At what cost? Human capital and the genocidal concentration camps?
I have to disagree on two things (though I am still open-minded to being convinced otherwise):
1. That the US bombing campaigns were merely "supportive" and to "soften-up" targets. It is my understanding that "strategic bombing" as it was called was crucial to victory over Hitler's war machine.
2. The significance of Normandy/D-Day and subsequent operations. Using your own sources, it appears Hitler began shifting significant divisions over to the Western front to deal with the incursions there in 1944-1945.
Some other points of significance:
http://www.history.com/news/history-lis … tern-front
Additionally, do you dismiss the significance of the Pacific Ocean Theater vis-a-vis the Tripartite pact?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartite_Pact
Last edited by Aqualung (2015-09-16 23:44:49)
RIP Europe.
^^ I think you are completely missing my hypothesis. I am saying that America wasn't the savior of Europe. I make no other claims.
The only reason why USA had low casualties is because they conviniently joined the real flight once it was completely clear that Germany was already defeated by USSR. USA waited for USSR to actually win the war and then they marched in and acted like they had some big part in the victory.
a bit like that, yes.
Interesting development if true.