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nämeless

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Priority

Today I was drinking vodka with my colleagues and this made us to raise debates about Yugoslavia, Ireland, Scotland and Crimea, of course. As far as you know, there will be a referendum tomorrow and I thought that all the issues and conflicts about the Crimean status are based on the imperfection of the international law accepted between countries and nations. I will try to explain. There are at least two principles under international laws that may contradict each other. Hence, it becomes the issue of priority: the right of nations to self-determination and territorial integrity.

What has the highest priority?

1. The right of nations to self-determination
2. Territorial integrity

Total votes: 18

Poll is closed

joint

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Re: Priority

i hope similar referendums be held all over the country, i would give my vote for rejoin with Russia (rejoin with, not join to), or for foundation a republic

nämeless

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Re: Priority

There will be only one referendum in Crimea I guess. That's it.

Coco

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Re: Priority

In geopolitics, I do believe this theoritical great principes are crap. The contexts are all very different.

For instance, what does "Territorial integrity" mean in Syria ? The borderlines are relatively new and made in a haphazard way by the former colonial powers. Mixing Sunni, Kurd, Alaouite and Christian areas.

However, I think the squabble between West and East requires a groundless partition of Ukraine. But today it's probably the least worst' solution.

Coco

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Re: Priority

Today I was drinking vodka with my colleagues

lol

nämeless

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Re: Priority

In geopolitics, I do believe this theoritical great principes are crap. The contexts are all very different.

For instance, what does "Territorial integrity" mean in Syria ? The borderlines are relatively new and made in a haphazard way by the former colonial powers. Mixing Sunni, Kurd, Alaouite and Christian areas.

However, I think the squabble between West and East requires a groundless partition of Ukraine. But today it's probably the least worst' solution.

Well, Syria is in civil war, the time of diplomacy is over at least inside the borders of that country. I am much more interested in Crimean and Scottish referendum campaign, because nobody is shooting there.

Today I was drinking vodka with my colleagues

lol

What's wrong with vodka?

Last edited by nämeless (2014-03-16 01:30:24)

Syndrum²

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Re: Priority

because nobody is shooting there.

Uhmm..

nämeless

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Re: Priority

because nobody is shooting there.

Uhmm..

Don't get me wrong, I am talking about Crimea only, not about the whole Ukraine.

Coco

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Re: Priority

Putin supported Bashar in the name of territorial integrity, few months after he supports Crimea for the right of self-determination. The French President supported Kosovo's independence in the name of self-determination, few months after he supported Georgia for the territorial integrity.

Don't hide behind fake principles, everybody knows you annex Crimea for the Ukrainian women

What's wrong with vodka?

I was trying to pictured an usual Russian working day lol

say

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Re: Priority

for territorial integrity: ya let the half miliard chinese settle in south russia & than allowe them to add this parts of russia to china
& if someone has problem with it than send here troops + terrorists

nämeless

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Re: Priority

Putin supported Bashar in the name of territorial integrity, few months after he supports Crimea for the right of self-determination. The French President supported Kosovo's independence in the name of self-determination, few months after he supported Georgia for the territorial integrity.

You don't understand me. In my opinion, everything should be working just fine like domain group policies where all the workstations should follow the policies of the domain controller. If it will be possible to determine that one principle has more priority over another one by the international law, it might help to make things easier.

Don't hide behind fake principles, everybody knows you annex Crimea for the Ukrainian women

Hehe.

I was trying to pictured an usual Russian working day lol

The best part of a work day is lunch time. I bet you, as a French, prefer fried frogs with wine.

for territorial integrity: ya let the half miliard chinese settle in south russia & than allowe them to add this parts of russia to china
& if someone has problem with it than send here troops + terrorists

There is more than enough Chinese people here.

Last edited by nämeless (2014-03-16 14:02:46)

s[sk]

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Re: Priority

Today I was drinking vodka with my colleagues and this made us to raise debates about Yugoslavia, Ireland, Scotland and Crimea, of course. As far as you know, there will be a referendum tomorrow and I thought that all the issues and conflicts about the Crimean status are based on the imperfection of the international law accepted between countries and nations. I will try to explain. There are at least two principles under international laws that may contradict each other. Hence, it becomes the issue of priority: the right of nations to self-determination and territorial integrity.

can you please define what exactly do you mean by "The right of nations to self-determination"?
to have their own country? to speak their language? flag?
what do russians living anywhere miss from that list?
or are we talking about Crimean tatars? (since russians and ukrainians have their own country, etc)

also what's "Territorial integrity" in your understanding? not to be invaded by another country's army if it feels it's useful for them geopolitically, economically or for another selfish reason?

i just need to clarify this before i can vote, thanks

nämeless

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Re: Priority

Let's follow the common meaning written in Wikipedia.

say

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Re: Priority

+1 for s[sk]
nämeless imagine that someone come & cut your county at a half  like in the korean peninsula sound good or doesnt ?
what about families whose got isolated from each other ?
Have u considered even this ?

I know running hegemony is fun only for few ..... but for masses its... ehm... just  not good" :!)

nämeless

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Re: Priority

+1 for s[sk]
nämeless imagine that someone come & cut your county at a half  like in the korean peninsula sound good or doesnt ?
what about families whose got isolated from each other ?
Have u considered even this ?

I know running hegemony is fun only for few ..... but for masses its... ehm... just  not good" :!)

This coin has two sides.

Last edited by nämeless (2014-03-16 16:12:14)

say

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Re: Priority

& now imagine there would be no coin at all
so u can do like they teached u at school ..count all +/- & make result with pure cold logic
or u can open yo eyes & act  more like human for pplz

joint

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Re: Priority

i told you s[sk] will write in here ^^

nämeless

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Re: Priority

& now imagine there would be no coin at all
so u can do like they teached u at school ..count all +/- & make result with pure cold logic
or u can open yo eyes & act  more like human for pplz

Anyway, there is a coin and this coin has two sides: the Crimean peninsula is controlled by self-defence forces and supported by Russia. Hence, it makes this peninsula the safest place in the whole Ukraine now. People are free to hold the referendum, because the new Ukrainian revolutionary government would never let them to do so. But there is another side of this coin and Russia should not control a part of another country in any way to let the inhabitants get their right to self-determination in fight.

i told you s[sk] will write in here ^^

He is thinking about his next comment. I bet he want to say something about USSR and Slovakia.

Last edited by nämeless (2014-03-16 16:15:01)

say

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Re: Priority

lol ya of cos everybody know whats russian peacefull solution since 5th january  1968

s[sk]

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Re: Priority

He is thinking about his next comment.

why bother?
i admit, it's interesting for me to try to understand how brainwashed minds like yours work but you seem to be quite poor subject for that if all you can do is to point me to wikipedia ;-)

nämeless

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Re: Priority

lol ya of cos everybody know whats russian peacefull solution since 5th january  1968

It's the issue of the newest history, not about the imperialistic ambitions of USSR, British Empire, USA, Japanese Empire, Third Reich etc.

He is thinking about his next comment.

why bother?
i admit, it's interesting for me to try to understand how brainwashed minds like yours work but you seem to be quite poor subject for that if all you can do is to point me to wikipedia ;-)

Well, when there are no more arguments, you always can say that your opponent is brainwashed. Here is the difference between discussion and polemics.

Last edited by nämeless (2014-03-16 16:46:24)

joint

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Re: Priority

lets do polemic here, your discussions wont change anything anyway

say

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Re: Priority

It's the issue of the newest history, not about the imperialistic ambitions of USSR, British Empire, USA, Japanese Empire, Third Reich etc.

hmm ...same scenar+ director, different actors & different age... but still cmon ... just try to re-feel victim side

nämeless

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Re: Priority

It's the issue of the newest history, not about the imperialistic ambitions of USSR, British Empire, USA, Japanese Empire, Third Reich etc.

hmm ...same scenar+ director, different actors & different age... but still cmon ... just try to re-feel victim side

I can't feel a victim, but I see when somebody's playing a victim.

lets do polemic here, your discussions wont change anything anyway

It's Sunday's evening, I have to go now. Maybe later.

Last edited by nämeless (2014-03-16 17:05:21)

say

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Re: Priority

I can't feel a victim ....

Hmm I feel sorry for u , do u have any emotions at all ?

...., but I see when somebody's playing a victim.

well now u mean Czechoslovakia or Ukraine ?

No matter how it look like.Ppl still suffer with or without russian help...
Its a big chess game where ppl r like chessmen.
Every move predetermine their fade.You cant win without loosing single chessman.But still pawns goes first
When game would be over (no matter who won), whole ukraina would suffer from following  economic crisis.
Definitely there is no solution ..., both decisions which u choosed has more - than + ...

nämeless

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Re: Priority

I can't feel a victim ....

Hmm I feel sorry for u , do u have any emotions at all ?

...., but I see when somebody's playing a victim.

well now u mean Czechoslovakia or Ukraine ?

No matter how it look like.Ppl still suffer with or without russian help...
Its a big chess game where ppl r like chessmen.
Every move predetermine their fade.You cant win without loosing single chessman.But still pawns goes first
When game would be over (no matter who won), whole ukraina would suffer from following  economic crisis.
Definitely there is no solution ..., both decisions which u choosed has more - than + ...

What should they do in Ukraine to stop this crisis? Maybe they need to burn alive more policemen? Maybe they need another Nazi torch-lit march in Kiev? I have no idea.

Last edited by nämeless (2014-03-16 22:03:45)

say

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Re: Priority

"violence begets more violence" Holy Bible

Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love... Our aim must never be to defeat or humiliate the white man, but to win his friendship and understanding. Martin Luther King

&I'm definitely against power intervention from both sides

Last edited by say (2014-03-16 22:37:15)

nämeless

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Re: Priority

It was a rhetorical question.

say

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Re: Priority

ya I saw tht answer in your question. Nevertheless I wanted to have last word

Frank(Ger)

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Re: Priority

"self-defence forces" with apc´s, machineguns and professional military equipment. Seriously, i don´t believe that.